ERICK'S GUIDE TO MEDICAL SCHOOL ADMISSIONS By Erick M. Santos Last modified on 11/01/95. _________________________________________________________________ [IMAGE] [1]Point Survey selected this site as a top five percent site. Check out the [2]review of this site in their archives. _________________________________________________________________ Number of visitors to this page since June 26, 1995: [IMAGE] Contents: * [3]Introduction * [4]Reasons to get an M.D. (or D.O.) * [5]Academics * [6]Extracurricular Activities * [7]Volunteer Work * [8]Research + Going MD/PhD * [9]MCATs * [10]Recommendations * [11]Essays * [12]Applications + Secondaries * [13]Interviewing * [14]Choosing Your Future Medical Alma Mater * [IMAGE] [15]Armed Forces and Other Scholarship Options * [16]Special Cases + Not getting admitted. + Older Students + Foreign/International Students + Minority Students * [17]Q&A For more info: + [18]Michael Greger's Advice to Medical School Applicants + [19]Misc.Education.Medical WWW Page + [20]The Interactive Medical Student Lounge. + Info on [21]Osteopathic Medicine. + [22]Extensive list of medical sites. _________________________________________________________________ [0]Introduction: My name is [23]Erick Santos, I am a 7th year MD/PhD student at the [24]University of Pennsylvania. As a student I have spent two years interviewing applicants to medical school and another two years as a student member in my school's admissions committee. This is my attempt to put down into writing all of the advice I have given or been given on how to get into medical school. This is a work in progress and I will be working on it occasionally in what little free time I can spare. _At this point I am only making this document available on the world wide web (read no e-mail or ftp)_. The most important thing when applying into medical school is _organization_. You need to submit every shred of material as early as possible if not earlier, and you need to look ahead to what is needed in the next stage of the game. For example, taking the MCAT in August instead of April of the year you are applying is a huge no-no. Doing things early is a must because admissions committees only review files that are complete and the earlier they get your stuff the more reviews you're file will get, therefore the more chances of getting in you'll have. _Disclaimer_: I take no responsibility for the use of the information provided in this document. It is free advice, so take it as such. These are my opinions based on my personal experience and are not absolute truths. Please consult with the pre-medical advisor at your school. [25]Go back to Contents. [0]Reasons to Get an M.D. (or D.O.): Think about why do you want to go into this profession. Is it the financial security, the desire to help others, the intellectual challenge, research interests, wanting to rid the world of plagues, or one of other several reasons that interests you? Make sure to give it a lot of thought because admissions committees look at that keenly. Your motivation to become a doctor will help shape the way you go about achieving your goal. If you do it for the right reasons people will likely recognize that, same thing applies if you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Just remember there are easier ways to make money than to go through medical school and residency. M.B.A.'s take only two years, cost much less than four years of med school, and you get paid a lot better for the first ten years after you get out. Whatever your reasons for going to med school just make sure they are from the heart. [26]Go back to Contents. [0]Academics: Good grades are one of the first things med schools look for in a candidate. Med school involves a lot of academic work; it is not that challenging intellectually for the most part, but it is voluminous. The work load is intense and admissions committees are looking for people who can handle that kind of work load. The GPA counts for a lot, but is not the whole story; the school you attend is important as well as your major and the kind of courses you took. Good grades in pre-med courses such as organic chemistry tell the med school that you can handle the work load. The quality and breadth of courses taken is also very important. Higher level or graduate courses are weighted more heavily than intro courses. The school you attend is also important. A college with a tough academic reputation is likely to impress an admissions committee. Most people applying to med schools are biology majors. I usually take more of an interest in applications of non-bio majors because of that reason. You can get into medical school from any major, from French to Anthropology to Psychology, just make sure you take all the recommended pre-med courses (1 yr of inorganic chemistry with lab, 1 yr of organic chemistry with lab, 1 yr of physics with lab, 1 yr of calculus, 1 yr of biology with lab and 1 yr of English - this should cover what is required by most med schools). I double majored in Biomedical Engineering and Materials Science & Engineering, and I am still doing related things for my PhD. When I review a folder I'm liable to be kinder to an engineering major with a 3.4 than I would to a bio major with a 3.8. When choosing a major go by your intellectual curiosity, you will learn all the biology you will ever need to know in medical school. Make sure you take a breadth of courses. Med schools like to see a good mix between humanities and science courses. The most important thing in college is to learn as much as you can, in and out of the classroom because you will probably not have an opportunity quite like it at any other time of your life. Study hard and play hard, that was my motto in college. If you need academic help ask for it. Many colleges have extensive academic advising programs, use the resources available to you. At the same time try not to stress out too much about school work and have fun. There were too many people in my college ([27]Johns Hopkins University) that obsessed enormously about grades and forgot the importance of just learning and having fun. If you are struggling and feel burnt out you may want to lighten your academic load (no one says you need to graduate in four years, although it may be financially advantageous to do so) or take some time off. Maybe you can do a semester or a year overseas. Special programs during college (like semesters away and co-op programs) can impress admissions officials and also provide a source for letters of recommendation. Get to know your professors and get involved in class. Professors will be writing letters for you (more about this [28]later) and you want to impress them with your stellar class participation and outstanding academic skills. Don't get discouraged if you started out slowly in college. Improving your GPA from year to year also counts for a lot. A less than stellar first two years in college can be made up to some extent with a good finish. Post-baccalaureate programs allow people who have their bachelor's degree to take pre-med requirements. A good show in these courses can also show med schools that you can handle the work. Remember to do your best and learn the most you can. [29]Go back to Contents. [0]Extracurricular Activities: Get involved! What distinguishes a good applicant from an outstanding applicant many times is the strength of his/her extracurricular activities. Med schools look for involvement and leadership, it is better to get involved and have leadership roles in a few choice activities than to be involved in everything in sight but not have done much for any of the organizations you belonged to. Select activities you have an interest in and stick to them throughout your time in college. Athletics and artistic talents are particularly impressive, but you don't need any special talents to participate in service organizations, religious clubs or any of the other hundreds of clubs available at the typical college. Employment while in school can also count for a lot. Paying for your own education through work shows responsibility and maturity. These are traits in high demand by med schools. Just remember to put your academics over all other activities in college; it won't help you get into medical school by failing classes by spending too much time in club activities while you should have been studying. The key here is time management, and it is something you need to learn if you are to get through med school. Make sure you allot enough time to class work and studying, balance counts for a lot in life - try to learn this early rather than late. [30]Go back to Contents. [0]Volunteer Work: One of the best things you can do to enrich yourself is to perform volunteer work. Helping other human beings is part of what medicine is about. You can also combine volunteerism with the chance to get exposed to your future profession by volunteering in a hospital or other health care environment. Part of what will set you apart as an applicant are those things that show traits such as compassion and caring in your record. Volunteering to help others will add positively to your perspective on life and that is the major reason to volunteer. One of the things people look for in a doctor is a sense that he/she cares about them as people. There is no way to learn this, but volunteering to help others can certainly help. Some of the best candidates I have seen have been those people who took some time off after college to serve in the Peace Corps or to volunteer in community projects as a part-time job while doing something else. Whatever you decide to do just make sure you remain committed to it for at least a reasonable amount of time. This shows you are serious about what you are doing. [31]Go back to Contents. [0]Research: Research and other such scholarly activities complement your academic record. It is hard to get into a top-notch medical school without some research experience. Your research experience doesn't have to be all hard science. It can be a scholarly project or independent study. Studying abroad may also count. The important thing is to do your best with your experience and learn from it. If you can get your name plubished so much the better, but that is not necessary. One of the things you should do is show your research advisor that you can complete your work competently and with little supervision. Doing summer work at a research institute such as the National Institutes of Health or such other agency can be a big plus. Make sure you use your summer vacation time wisely. Admissions committees also look at how you spent or mispent that time. Working with somebody who is nationally known in his/her field (e.g. a Nobel Prize winner) can also be a big bonus. Seek these people out and ask for a small project. Complete this project well and you will probably be asked to do other things. Take initiative and strive for excellence. Going for a combined degree such as MD/PhD is a big commitment. I am going into year seven of the program at the [32]University of Pennsylvania and it has been a long road. If you are interested in research and/or academics as a career I think this is the best way to go. The skills you learn in the PhD program will help you for the rest of your career. There are two key things to consider when applying to MD/PhD programs: _funding_ and your _faculty advisor_. Most med schools that support medium to large MD/PhD programs will give you excellent clinical training. If you are considering a PhD, at the minimum you should get full funding while doing the PhD part of the program, med school funding is more difficult to obtain. If you are lucky (and a research star) you could obtain an MSTP fellowship which will cover both med school and grad school tuition and give you a stipend to live on. There is a similar fellowship (MARC) for underrepresented minorities. Apply and don't sign up for a school until you get a firm commitment for some kind of funding. The second key item is to find a faculty advisor as early as you can since this may speed up the PhD part of the program considerably. I sought out my current advisor when I was a senior in college and it turned out very well for me. Try to attach yourself to somebody that is well respected in the area you want to pursue and make sure this is somebody you can trust and work with for several years. During college make sure you start doing research early and try to get as many publications as you can. Look for a mentor that can recommend you strongly for your contributions to his/her lab. The best thing is to start early and to pick a field you like and feel passionate about - this will make your research more pleasant and meaningful. I'll make a small plug for Penn's program, it is very diverse (in terms of ethnicity and areas of study represented) and flexible. Funding is guaranteed for at least 5 years (you pay for the first two med school years) in most cases. You should also be aware that the interview schedule for MD/PhD candidates is twice as brutal as for regular candidates. You will apply to both programs in the same form, but you will be evaluated by people in the department you apply to, a committtee that decides MSTP funding and medical school admissions people in most cases. At minimum this will mean 4 interviews in one or two days, with possibly as many as 10 different interviewers getting a crack at you. Make sure you know your research inside and out and can explain it clearly since everyone will ask you about it. The combined degree program has allowed me to expand my horizons and learn more than I thought possible. It has been long, but persistence has helped me get through it and I will be able to graduate next May if everything goes as planned at the end of my seven years. [33]Go back to Contents. [0]MCATs: Ah, the dreaded test. Just one more hoop to get through. When I took the test in a full day ordeal the essay was experimental and didn't count. Now it's part of the test and causes thousand of pre-meds extra anxiety. There are dozens of prep courses for this test, although the effectiveness of these depends on how much time you are willing to put in. I did one of these prep courses and thought it didn't help me much because I didn't want to put in the time to do all the audio tapes involved. My advice is to take the exam in April (never in August of the year you are applying), and to study out of review books or class notes for a couple of weeks before the exam. Make sure you have some writing courses under your belt before taking the exam as well as the requisite bio, chem and physics courses. Get a good night of sleep before the exam. I borrowed a friend's apartment for this purpose since I lived in a fraternity house. Take plenty of sharpened number 2 pencils and some high carbohydrate snacks for during the test. Relax and try to do your best (I think it is useless to try to study the morning of the exam - don't do it, it just increases the level of stress). Go out and celebrate afterwards to erase all that accumulated knowledge. I usually tell people not to take the MCATs again unless you think there was some reason you could get significantly better scores. Every time you take the test you will probably improve by 2 or 3 points your score, but that is expected since you are now very familiar with the format. You also risk bringing your score down which will not look good at all. Just try to do your best and after your finished don't fret about them anymore. MCATs are just one piece of information that med schools use to evaluate you, a low score won't necessarily eliminate you from consideration, conversely a high score will not guarantee you admission. Note though, that some schools use formulas with the MCATs and GPA to initially screen out applicants for interviews. You may want to ask schools you are interested in applying to wether they use one of these formulas. MCATs can help you make up for some low grades, but not completely. Your best bet is to concentrate on your whole package, not just on one element. Some schools will look at your file before the August MCATs are in, if you do take the MCATs again check with the schools you are applying in to see if they will review your folder before those scores are in. If not then your file will be left to the end of the season when your chances of getting in will be very tight. Even though the prep-courses didn't help me much I'll include links to [34]Kaplan's web site and [35]Princeton Review's web site because they contain some useful information including guides to med schools and helpful hints for the MCATs. [36]Go back to Contents. [0]Recommendations: I put a lot of weight on recommendations when I look at someone's record. I pay particular attention to what people say about the applicant's personal qualities. That is why you should choose with care the people you ask to recommend you. I prefer to see a letter from an assistant professor who led a seminar you were involved in, than a nationally recognized full professor who had you in lecture and says that you got an A in his/her course but doesn't know you very well. Try to get letters from anyone you can that knows you well and in an objective fashion. Someone like a research advisor, your supervisor at work, your academic advisor, a faculty person in residence. These people are more likely to know you well and have more to say about you. A local physician you did some volunteer work with is also a good choice, but not somebody who is a friend of your family and only knows you in that capacity. It is also very useful to have a committee letter from your school where they pool all your letters and write a composite highlighting the bright point. These save the admissions committee people a lot of time. Make yourself known when working with professors on class projects, and ask to do some independent work. These things will set you apart from the pack. Also, when you ask for a letter, and ask for the letter as early as possible, give the person a way out - ask them if they can write you a _strong_ letter (not just an average one). Make it easy for them to write the letter by giving them a deadline and including some info about yourself together with a pre-addressed, self-stamped envelope. [37]Go back to Contents. [0]Essays: Essays are an important way to express yourself to the people reading your application. Try to make it interesting, even entertaining, to read and include a great deal of things that will set you apart as a person from other applicants. Check it for grammar and spelling and have other people read it (like an English major for example). Some of the best essays I've read were personal stories that were different and revealed a lot about the writer's personality and way of thinking. You'll get extra points for being creative and for not making it too long. The best thing is to start writing 3 or 4 different essays a few months before the applications are turned in. Write one essay about your goals, write one about the experiences that helped you decide to become a doctor and write one or two more essays about personal themes. When the time comes to fill out applications you can combine parts of these different essays to tailor a different one to each school. Check out [38]Paul Steward's clever essay which he didn't dare put in his AMCAS form. Would you have the guts to put something like that in your form? The most imaginative essay I saw while reviewing files was one in the form of a scientific abstract complete with real references (to humanistic sources, not his actual publications). [39]Go back to Contents. [0]Applications + Secondaries: _I can't emphasize enough that you need to turn everything in as early as you can. _ The AMCAS application should be in their office not long after the 1st of June (the earliest date it is accepted). Obtain the forms early and get them in as soon as possible. The secondary applications (most are just to ask you for more money) will come in within the next month to month and a half. Fill them out as qiuckly as you can. That is one of the advantages of having essays already prepared. Applying to medical school is an expensive proposition. All told you will probably spend in excess of $1000 in application fees, not including interviewing travel expenses. You should probably apply to a minumum of about ten schools, including all of your state's schools. Make sure you apply to a couple of schools as safety schools, some in the middle range and one or two as long shots (you never know, they might like your style). Only apply to schools you are really interested in attending. It is expensive enough to apply to the ones you are sure you would go to. Most secondary applications will ask you for an additional essay or two. I remember blowing off the Stanford application because you had to write seven or eight additional essays. Get these out of the way one or two days after they come in; don't let them pile up or you'll run into trouble getting them in. [40]Go back to Contents. [0]Interviewing: Here's the chance the schools have to get to know you up close and personal. You have to put your best face forward and come prepared for all the favorite interviewer questions that make the rounds such as: why do you want to be a doctor? Tell me about youself. What do you think of health care reform?, etc. Set up a practice interview with your pre-med advisor and have him/her drill you with questions. Think about your agenda for the interview and be prepared to guide the interview into subjects that present you in the best possible light. Read and ask questions about the school you are going to be interviewing in. Come prepared with a copy of your resume just in case. Dress your best and conservatively, although women can wear something besides navy (everybody wears navy, if you wear something a different color people might remember you better). Make sure you talk to as many students as you can and ask them what they think of the place. Med school is hard work and people will be tired, but some places treat their students better than others and you need to find this out. Try to stay for more than a day and explore the surroundings, if you can stay with one of the current students (many schools have volunteers for this, so ask when you get invited to the interview). Try to get as much information about the school as they get out of you. During the interview itself make eye contact, smile and try to relax as much as you can. Be honest and forthright with your answers and don't fidget. I usually run my interviews by asking for the applicant to tell me anything about themselves that they want to share. I am mostly interested in what kind of person they are and how they would fit into my school. Be prepared for some offbeat questions and other curve balls that sometimes appear, just don't panic and try to relax. Continued nervousness is a bad thing in an interview situation. [41]Go back to Contents. [0]Choosing Your Future Medical Alma Mater: Hopefully by the end of this process you'll have several letters of acceptance and be faced with the pleasant choice of finding your future medical alma mater. One of the first things to do is to look at financial matters. What kind of financial aid are they offering you and how much debt will you come out with after four years? This should be in the back of your mind, but not the deciding factor (unless your a California resident and accepted into a CA school, in which case you should go for it unless you get into a top-notch school). Think about the academic caliber of the schools you get into, the surrounding environment and the things you've heard from the students already there. You may want to visit your top two choices again if you can and talk to as many students and faculty as you can. You may even be able to sit in a class or two. [42]Go back to Contents. [0]Armed Forces and Other Scholarship Options: I joined the [43]U.S. Air Force Health Professions Scholarship Program in 1990 under their four year scholarship plan. This meant that I was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Air Force Reserves, and I signed a contract to serve with them for four years after I obtain my M.D. The scholarship payed for four years of med school tuition, a stipend (somewhere between $800-$900/month, by now) and books. You spend summers with them, either in officer training or other activities (I did a summer of aerospace medicine training in Brooks AFB, San Antonio TX, which was a lot of fun) and also do a couple of med school elective rotations in military hospitals. I think the whole deal is worth it, but you have to know what you are getting into. Don't trust everything the recruiter says and make sure you speak to one or two people currently in the program before entering into it. I am now officially in a leave of absence from the program to pursue my PhD, but leaves are rarely granted (this one took a three star general to get). In December I find out the results of the Air force match which determines whether or not I will be granted a deferment to pursue Orthopaedic Surgery at a civilian hospital, if not I will probably end up doing flight surgery for four years after my internship. _Time spent in residency does not count towards paying back your owed time._ The Army and the Navy are even tougher than the Air force in terms of granting civilian residency deferments, and most of the time you end up doing a military internship and serving as a general medical officer for your 3 or 4 years of pay back time. If you don't mind travelling where the military sends you then it is a great life, but also consider the effects the military way of life would have on your significant other. All three services have a medical school, the Uniformed Services School, in Bethesda Maryland, through which you serve in active duty during medical school (with full pay in benefits) and agree to pay back seven years as an M.D. after graduation. Consider this if you are thinking about a career in the military (you can retire in 20 years at half pay). With all routes you end up commissioned as an O-3 (captain in the Army or Air Force). Other routes not in the military, include the [44]Public Health Service and the Indian Health Service, in which you agree to work in underserved areas after your residency in a primary care field. These programs also have excellent loan repayment programs which give you more flexibility in arranging a site to practice in after residency. More on this topic to come. [45]Go back to Contents. [0]Special Cases: What if you didn't get any acceptances? Start making alternate plans for that in May or June. You may want to try a Master's degree or get a job for another year that exposes you to the medical field. Talk to your pre-med advisor to explore your options. Some schools pull people out of the waiting list up to the first day of classes, but make contingency plans much earlier than that. Older students should give extra attention to those pre-med requirements. Committees look keenly at those grades to see if you have what it takes to perform well in med school. It may not help you that much to get all A's in post-baccalaureate pre-med courses, but it may hurt you a lot if you get mediocre grades in them. Check with schools you may want to apply to to see if they'll wave some of the requirements in lieu of advanced studies (such as a Master's or PhD in a science related field). As an older and presumably more mature individual you will be expected to excel in the interviewing process, here again an outstanding interview may not help you that much, but a so-so interview is likely to hurt your chances for admission. Make sure you play up any interesting experiences you may have had in the years after college. At my school about 15-20% of people in the class come from "non-traditional" backgrounds which includes people who took a couple of years off after college and people who switched career tracks. Make sure you look at schools that are kinder to non-traditional students, some schools are more than others. I've heard [46]Medical College of Pennsylvania/Hahnemann Univ. and [47]Univ. of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston are two schools that take a good number of non-traditional students, but there are many more around the country. Make sure you talk to students in your same (or similar) situation while you visit the schools, they'll probably give you a better perspective than that of people fresh out of college. Here's Charles Powell's site entitled [48]The Mature Medical Student chronicling his experience as an older med student. International students face a lot of hurdles in applying to U.S. medical schools. U.S. citizens, especially residents of the state where the medical school is located will be given preference over an equally qualified international student. International students will also have to prove that they have the funds to pay outright for medical school expenses because they will not be eligible for financial aid in most cases. At Penn these expenses are in excess of $35,000 a year (includes tuition, books and living expenses). Studying at a school outside the U.S. is fine, but in order to practice medicine in the U.S. you will need to pass the foreign graduates medical licensing exam or the USMLE steps 1 through 3, as well as doing a residency in the U.S. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from applying, but those are the rules as far as I know. Your best bet is to consult directly with any schools you may be interested in applying to and give them your specific circumstances. I have been involved in trying to increase minority enrollment since my college days. One of the things I have noticed while I have been in Medical school has been how late a majority of minority students get their applications in. My advice earlier stands double for minority students: _APPLY AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE_. Being of minority background (African American, Mainland Puerto Rican, Mexican American or Native American) can confer a couple of advantages in the selection process, but it is up to you to try to show that you have been involved in activities relating to your cultural heritage. By doing this you are showing the admissions committee that you will add diversity to the class, by being more than just a number. For example, get involved and take a leadership role in ethnic organizations, volunteer in inner city neighborhoods, etc. All of this will distinguish you. When applying to med schools make sure you talk to current minority students and also schedule time with administrators dealing with minority affairs, a lot of time these school officials will play a part in the admissions process. Make sure you also ask them for enrollment figures for the past ten years for minority students as well as percentage of those retained and graduated. You don't want to attend a school that accepts many minority students, yet has most of them drop out before graduation. Here's an interesting page dealing with [49]Chicanos and Latinos in Health Education from [50]UC Berkeley. [51]Go back to Contents. [0]Q&A Here are some questions asked in response to my web page and the answers I gave. Q=question, A=answer, *indicates someone is asking me a question or providing information. * Q: What's the earliest date that the AMCAS form can be turned in? A: Check it out. It used to be June 15th, but I'm almost sure it was moved up to June 1st this year. Pick up an AMCAS form from your pre-med advisor and it should have the exact date there. * A:Your graduate work and courses should compensate somewhat for the cum. GPA which is low, but not that low. *Undergraduate cumulative GPA is 3.09 *Undergraduate science GPA is 3.54 *I have taken many graduate school classes both in India and here at Mayo and Temple. The average GPA in USA schools has been 3.4 and in India it is 3.93. *I would say that the MCAT scores when they come would reflect strong performance in Sciences. However I am not so sure about the English section. *I am seeking your opinion/help in advising as to how I must go about applying. I really like medical education, and would like to pursue it. Could you tell me how the schools screen the AMCAS applications before sending the secondary app out. A:Some schools, especially state schools have formulas which use MCAT +GPA to have cutoffs. I really wouldn't worry about it too much. Apply to schools in your state of residence as well as any private schools that you feel you may like to go to. I would recommend applying to at least 10 schools, maybe more. * Q:Any suggestions on the essay? A: I think you may want to diversify your essay a bit more. All you need is a paragraph describing research experience, the rest should deal with the kind of person you are, any experiences that led you to decide on medicine as a career, and interesting extracurricular activities. Let the essay show some of the interesting aspects of your life. It will probably hurt you to have it be more than 40% on research. * *I am not the traditional applicant because I graduated 7 years ago and do not have the traditional background that other applicants might have. My girlfriend made it into med school after being out for 5 years and I have had a couple of friends and classmates doing med school in their 30s and 40s. *Here is a brief description of my last 12 years. University of Buffalo Honors Scholar 3.9/4.0 Electrical Engineering and afterwards Organic Chemistry and Biology 3.9/4.0 No degree. Took these course to apply to medical school. *Later attended University of Buffalo taking Electrical Engineering courses while considering a PhD in Electrical Engineering. Supported my wife through three years of Law School. This is a good thing and something you can use in your essay. *A year ago made the decision I did not want to be an Electrical Engineer any more !!!! Good for you, and the training you got as a EE will probably serve you well no matter what you do. *MCATs and here are my results Physical Science 13, Biological Sciences 11, Verbal Reasoning 9, Writing Sample M (25th percentile, ouch !!!) Those are pretty good scores. I didn't pay that much attention to the writing sample in most cases, just make sure you write a good essay. *My wife and I recently moved from Buffalo, NY to Tucson, AZ due to her employment. Due to the move, I was unable to fully prepare myself for the MCAT exam and only spent a limited time brushing up on the Science portion. I sold a house in Buffalo,bought a house in Tucson, and transferred all of our belongings here !!! You don't need to make any excuses, just sell your high points. Apply now, fill out that AMCAS this week and take the plunge. The earlier you get going the better and the better your chances. Apply to schools in your state of residence (I think there is only one in AZ, although many in NY) and also to schools that take a higher proportion of non-traditional students. UT Med Branch at Galveston is one of them, there might be some in CA (but CA schools are notoriously hard to get into). * *It's also interesting that you should say I've yet to be "tainted" by med school. My father's a physician and I know lots of doctors so I think I know what you're talking about. Perhaps you don't mean it negatively but if you do, I can only hope that the passion I feel for the subjects I am studying never ceases. I didn't mean it negatively, but medical school does change your outlook and you do have to fight to stay upbeat and keep from getting worn down. When you finish med school and go back to see what you wrote in your journal and you'll probably know what I mean. Perri Klass wrote a book about her experiences going through medical school: "A Not Entirely Benign Procedure" published by SIGNET, Penguin Books - 375 Hudson St. NYC 10014. Make sure you read it. * *I enjoy your guide to Med school. It's very helpful. However, I have taken the MCAT twice and my highest Verbal score is 6. I am not a English-speaking native. Would you have any suggestions on how to improve my Verbal score ? My sciences score are 8 and 9. My writing sample score is Q. I think your writing sample might balance out a little bit your verbal score. You may want to take some prep courses over the summer in English. Read a lot and use a dictionary often. Your scores are not bad and i don't know if taking the MCAT again will help. You may want to bite the bullet and just apply and concentrate on your other assets. Just make sure the schools know that english is not your first language. * *A little background: I am 29; spent six years in the Army as a tanker (eventually commanded a tank during the gulf war); blew my first two years of college before joining the Army (slunk out of town with a 2.3); have earned a 3.7 since getting out which includes a 3.55 in the two years I have been studying bioengineering at Texas A&M; have volunteer expierence in coaching youth athletics, Habitat for Humanity and Big Brothers; and earned a 35 on the MCAT (VR 13, PS 12, BS 10 WS L). I think your chances are excellent. You have interesting life experiences, and you showed a lot of improvement since your first two years of college. Your MCATs are fine. I usually didn't put much stock in that essay myself. I actually got e-mail from a Vietnamese fellow who's English is his second language. He got a 6 on his verbal, yet a T on his essay. Go figure. I'm glad the essay didn't count for me. *My main question concerns how badly my chances of admission (at Penn and in general) have been hurt by the extremely poor writing score, my age and early college grades. I am at a loss to explain the "L", as I have always recieved compliments (sincere I believe) on my expository writing, and I am sure that all three portions of the question were addressed in my essays. Don't worry too much about it and work on a good essay for your applications. *I was also wondering about the level of screening (if any) done at the AMCAS application step, ie what percentage of those sending the AMCAS application to a school are sent secondary applications? Most schools don't do much screening at that stage. I think some state schools do, but I'm not sure. I'm sure Penn will send you one. Just finish your applications ASAP. * Q: Course requirements, are they important to get in? A: My feeling is that you should take the extra courses - second semester Organic with lab, Physics (2 semesters with lab), and at least one semester of English. Not only will you benefit from the courses for the MCAT, but it will also let you apply to many more schools. If you don't take the courses you'll probably be limited in the number of schools you can apply to, and in the ultra-competitive environment we are in now that's not a good idea. You may want to take some time off to sort things out or maybe you can take the extra courses during the summer. * * I also wanted to know if you could answer a quick question (having gone through the process yourself). I wanted to know the time at which all courses, extracurriculars, jobs, etc., would need to be accomplished in order to be seen by the med school committee. So, for example, would a summer job after junior year be able to be written on an application (assuming entrance into med school directly following senior year). And, further, would courses during first semester senior year be seen/acknowledged or is all paperwork in by then. The best thing you can do is to fill out that AMCAS application as early as possible (June 1, this year, it used to be June 15). Just put down everything you've done until then. You will get secondary applications from schools where you can put in your summer stuff. If you do more stuff after that, academic or otherwise just send letters to the schools updating your information. Some people send CVs or update pages and it all gets read. Getting things in early will make the most difference. Waiting will only hurt your application unless you received the Nobel Peace Prize and want to figure that prominently in your application. *This pretty much comes down to my inquiry of when are all the application materials in, and then when does any further achievement become irrelevant... Further achievement is never irrelevant, and if you are still a candidate by the Spring of your Senior year (or Summer if you are waitlisted) you should send that update letter to schools you are interested in. * *Can you please tell me how you were able to locate so many medical-related sites? And how did you learn the art of HTML programming? I use Netscape which makes it easy to connect to www search engines such as Lycos it also displays the source code in html of documents which helps in learning html. I've been accumulating medical sites for some time, a good place to start is at Yahoo: [52]http://www.yahoo.com/ in terms of learning html here's the URL of a good primer which I used: [53]http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/Internet/WWW/HTMLPrimer.html * *I'm half way throgh my PhD in the Department of Microbial and Molecular Biology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and I've seriously been considering, for the last two years, the possibility of going to Medical School when I finish, instead of continuing post-doctoral studies. I would like to apply to Medical Schools in the States. I know its not easy, far from it. But first of all, I'm a US citizen, even though I've never studied there, and I'm also a resident of the state of Illinois, which is why I was considering of applying in various Schools in that region. I think you'll be fine since you are a US citizen, will have a PhD and probably has led an interesting life. The admissions committees will eat it up. Just make sure you start the process early and apply to lots of schools, especially in Illinois. *Why to study medicine?. First of all because I feel that its something that I could be easily involved in, not only the studying part, but the kind of work in the future, the day to day contact with people. I am also convinced that the knowledge obtained by going to medical school can be a powerfull guide with respect to research, which is something I would also like to combine with medicine. There as good reasons as any I've heard. Make sure you get good references from people you've worked with - professors and any physicians. You can also improve your chances by volunteering in Israel with something related to the health care field. *I would like to know your opinion about this. I'm thirty and by the time I finish I'll be almost thirty two. Do you think this could be considered a disadvantage when applying?. I'm planning to take the mcat in April next year and apply in July. I am very interested to know your opinion about all this. Study hard for the MCAT and make sure you get those applications in by the 1st of June (the AMCAS form). Your age may work to your advantage, just make sure you show professionalism and maturity at the interviews. * *I enjoyed your guide and insights to med school admissions. I am a non-traditional med school candidate (for fall '96) with fairly broad educational background and research experience. Unfortunately, I am one of the many applicants who will be taking the August MCAT. I am also applying to Penn's MD/Ph.D. program, although I have the feeling that my grades (although good) are not up to the standards for the combined degree program. I would welcome any additional insights you might be able to give me. The late MCAT will probably hurt you a lot more than your grades, but even semi-low grades will not disqualify you. For MD/PhD applicants a good research track record (publications, big name lab and recommendations) will make up for a lot. Make sure you get everything in as early as you can but don't expect any interviews until late November. *I have one particular question: How much 'preference', if any, does Penn give to Alumni children in the admissions process (eg. separate applicant pool, lower GPA cutoff, none, etc.)? There is some preference, I think most of them get interviewed and allowed to progress with lower ratings to the final round, but if they are not good they will get wait listed or rejected just like anybody else. It does help them get their foot in the door. * * Great Job! This is extremely helpful for someone planning to apply. Perhaps you could answer an additional question for me? I am 26 and plan to apply this spring (not next fall thanks to your advice), and unfortunately I did very poor work right out of high school. I later went back to get my 2-year degree, took off more time and now I'm back part-time for my bachelors in Biology. How much will the work (or lack of work) I did 8 years ago count against me. The admissions committees are likely to focus more on your most recent work, although many schools have GPA cutoffs so that if your prior performance was bad enough and your GPA suffered (let's say global GPA * Q: Good minority affairs + OB/GYN in one school? The July 24 1995 US News & World Report has a listing of America's Best Hospitals by specialty, for gynecology it lists: 1. Johns Hopkins 2. Mayo Clinic 3. U. Texas at houston (MD Anderson) 4-5. Harvard (Brigham and Women's + MGH) 6. Univ. of Southern California (LA County) 7. Duke 8. Cleveland Clinic 9. Univ. of Chicago 10. UCLA 15. [54]Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania Pick up the issue at your library to see the rest. They also publish a ranking of the best medical schools. Penn was ranked 7, Harvard 1 and Hopkins 2. Within the top ten schools I think it is a matter of individual choice to which school you attend. Penn has a strong minority affairs office with strong recruitment and retention programs. Howard and Meharry are both predominantly African American schools. Your best bet is to check with students at schools where your friend may be interested in applying and feel out the situation. Hopkins is a great medical school (I went there as an undergrad) but it doesn't have a good reputation with minority students. Temple and MCP in Philly are also very friendly to minorities, while Thomas Jefferson isn't. Your friend has to assess his/her record to decide what caliber of schools to apply to. I wouldn't worry about OB/GYN training just yet, just concentrate on getting in. Univ. of Michigan was ranked number 40 for gynecology in the list, and it is an excellent medical school. I don't know too much about its situation with minority students. * *I'm in the midst of applying to MD/PhD programs, and I noticed that you were a combined degree student at Penn. How is the program there? I think it's one of the larger programs in the country. Penn's a great program, a solid med school with very good support for MD/PhDs, the PhD part depends on what area you are going into. The only bad part about Penn is West Philly, not the best neighborhood. *What enjoyment do plan to derive from being a physician? I can't seem to say anything much more than helping other people. I really want to help improve other people's health. But I also realize that this is an expected answer, and I do not know how to find a twist to an expected answer. Any advice? You are going to have to come up with those reasons by yourself, search your mind and see why you want to go through this crazy ride. For me part of it was intellectual challenge, part the idea of coordinating between engineers that design devices and surgeons that use them. I needed more contact with human beings than the bench could provide. *What do you think is the biggest issue facing health care today and tomorrow? I got this question in my interview at SUNY Syracuse, and was surprised to see it also in one of the homepages on the Net. I answered Medicare, Medicaid, and the growing elderly population. I'm not sure if the medical establishment has other opinions. Do they? It will always be money, who finances what at the top. Second would be ethical questions on life death and the beginning of life. *One question I forgot to ask is: What do you think about applying to the combined programs at schools that has had a tradition in training people to be primary care physicians? I'm talking about schools like Vermont, and Loyola, etc, but I would very much like to go to an institution that is top-notch in research. I'm just wondering how such schools would respond to such an applicant. (I know I'll have to do my share and see if there is any research there that I would like to take part in). Stick with big schools unless you find someone in a PhD field you want to work with at these smaller schools and also pay attention to funding. Make sure someone is paying your way, at least for the PhD part. * *I was just wondering if you could give me some more details about what medical schools are looking for in minority students as far as grades and MCATs. Are other factors weighed just as much? The higher the better of course, most of the minority applicants to Penn Med were between 3.0 and 3.5 with a few lower and a few higher. MCATs on individual sections were usually between 8 and 10. The whole application is screened by a faculty member to figure out who's invited for an interview. There are no cutoffs for low scores, but you are basically competing with people in a similar situation as yours: African American and Ivy College. The other factors, especially recommendations are weighed heavily and can tip you either way. *I am an African-American male and I am currently an undergrad at U. Penn. Like you said I got all of my applications out in August. So far I have been granted an interview at Morehouse. It's early for interviews, but you'll probably get one sometime in late October or early November depending on when you turned in your secondary. * *If you don't mind, I do have two questions for you regarding my status as an applicant (and yes, I am applying to Penn): *1) What is an Admissions Committee likely to think of an Economics major from Wesleyan University (CT) with relatively low GPA (3.17 science, 3.36 non-science) and MCATs (10, 10, Q, 9), if I have significant neurobiology research experience at Stanford (first author on paper) and particularly strong extracurriculars? Economics is a good major, the GPA is kinda low, but won't disqualify you. The MCATs are OK, though not spectacular. The research and the paper authorship should gain you lots of points. Extracurriculars count for a lot as well as strong recommendation letters. *2) How does Penn interpret applicants with 2 sets of MCAT scores? (i.e., take the average, take the most recent score, take the highest in each section, or look at both). We looked at all the sets and see if there was improvement. We expected to see at least some small improvement for every time the test was retaken. Most of the time multiple test taking only hurt unless you gained a lot from before. *Any wisdom you could share would be greatly appreciated. Again, thanks for the guide -- it's wonderful! * *I have one question which it seems no one is able to answer. On some applications, schools ask what courses you have completed that satisfy the "required courses" part of the admissions process. I.e., they want you to list the courses that fulfill the biology/chemistry/physics/english requirements. Without seeing the actual application its difficult to guess what the school wants, but here it goes. As a general rule put down one year of bio with lab and if you have extra space list important electives in bio, chem and orgo with lab, physics with lab, calculus (one or two courses) and English (a writing course + any other course). If you still have extra space after all of this just put down electives that are related to the pre-med courses like physical chemistry or genetics, etc. For the most part they just want you to rehash the courses you took as pre-med requirements all in one place for their convenience. * Would you know whether applicants are supposed to fill in as many blanks as possible, or just fill in the blanks until the requisite amount of semester hours are listed? It seems to me that this is an important question, since it's the difference between listing all of your courses and just listing the courses you've done the best in. I would fill out as many blanks as possible and use the extra spaces for related courses I did well in, the regular pre-med courses you have to put in regardless of how well you did. If you don't have too many courses you did well in, then it is better to leave blanks instead of putting extra stuff. * You really need to be committed to go into medical school, if you can't get good grades in pre-med courses now you'll never survive the grueling academic schedule of med school. *I have looked into Post-Baccalaureate programs (I was able to locate one at Columbia), and they seem like a start. But they are fairly expensive, and I wonder how much they'll help. I'm also taking a course here at Syracuse University (Advanced Organic Chemistry) to try to re-learn what I missed the first time through. But still, evcen taking only one course, I am not motivated to even study. I have to literally force myself to pick up my Orgo book, and I have homework due tomorrow that I barely started. What's wrong with me? Maybe medicine is not for you, there are a lot of hoops to go through before you become an MD and most involve test taking and lots of studying. It is not that intellectually challenging for the most part, but it is a great deal of volume to absorb. You need to be ready for this. *I have always thought about medicine, and I feel that the field is one where I can help others, and be respected (societally). I have no interest in money; I only want a job where I can feel challenged and motivated, and can go home at night and feel like I've done some good. Are these not good enough reasons to apply to medical schools? Maybe you can do an MPH (Public Health) or a similar program such as an MSW (Social Work). Both of these professions help people and are pretty well respected. *Well, I'll go on forever if I continue. I guess I was just wondering: what should I do? And do you know of any Post-Bac programs besides Columbia? And am I stupid to condiser any of this? There are many other Post-bac programs, the one at Penn will let you do pre-med work while you work for the university and thus you can take two courses a semester for free. I think your problem is one of self-motivation and you are probably smart enough, but it takes a lot of determination to make it through med school. I hope I've helped with my comments. I did not want to discourage you, but you really need to crank on your courses if you hope to get into med school. * I had many friends who went to USUHS, we do our Air Force officer training together. I'll be sure to mention it. *In this discussion, you might also want to mention the USUHS, which is a military medical school which one can attend, with no tuition, with a seven year committment. Students are active duty throughout medical school (compared to only 45 days a year for the scholarship) and recieve active duty pay, around $28,000 a year, along with all active duty benefits. Just make sure you know what you are getting into before hand. I think the military is a great deal, but you have to go wherever they send you and in most cases you'll have to seve as a general medical officer for a couple of years before they let you do a residency. * Q: How do I take the ECFMG? I'm sorry I don't know much about the ECFMG. Only the USMLE in which step 2 is clinically oriented. Try contacting the NBME at: (215) 590-9500 They'll probably have an answer for you. * Q: What courses do I need to satisfy pre-med requirements? Here are the courses you need: General Bio 1 year with lab Intro Chem 1 year with lab Organic Chem 1 yr w/ lab General Physics 1 yr w/ lab Calculus 1 yr English 1 yr The course requirements will vary from school to school, but this should cover most of them. These are only guidelines and you should really talk to a pre-med advisor. *What do you think about joining professional associations?(AMSA, AMA, etc.) Do these look good on an application? Is it possible that they emphasize your commitment to the field? They can't hurt and leadership positions in the local chapters or the national ones can be helpful. Do certifications like EMT, CNA, RN look good on applications? Is there any way that they may detract from a candidate? EMT may help some, nursing certifications may actually hurt because some people may view it as a lack of commitment to medicine as a final goal. * Q: As a US citizen studying at a foreign med school, how do I transfer to a US med school? Being a U.S. citizen will help, although it is exceedingly difficult to transfer from a foreign med school to one in the U.S., if it happens at all it will happen between the second and third year. You need to do well in the USMLE step 1, score of 200 or better. Your best bet is to apply to NY state schools since that is your state of residence. I wish you luck, it will be difficult, but not impossible. Make sure you can articulate good reasons for wanting to transfer to a school in the U.S. *1) What does Penn's admissions committee (or that of other research-based medical schools) think of applicants from national liberal arts institutions? (I went to Wesleyan.) Favorably? Unfavorably? Do they view those schools in the same way they view large private and public universities? Depends on the school, and depends on who's reading the application. For the most part the high caliber liberal arts schools are highly regarded. *2) Do Committee members have different MCAT criteria for science and non-science majors? (i.e., do they expect science majors to have stronger BS & PS scores? And conversely, are lower science scores acceptable for students taking only the intro-level courses?) No not really, you are supposed to do well regardless. I've seen liberal arts majors with 13 and 14s in the physical sciences section. * means that someone is asking a question or providing information. [55]Go back to Contents. You may distribute this document freely as long as you leave this statement and my name attached to it. This document is copyrighted in the name of Erick M. Santos, 1995. All rights are reserved. [56]Go back to Isla de Erick. _____________________________________________________________ Please send any comments to: [57]santos_e@a1.mscf.upenn.edu